Friday, June 30, 2006

Derek and Alex’s Mythical Journey
By Ben Valentine

As many of my loyal readers know, I have argued long and hard against the ridiculous perception held by Yankee fans, the New York media and basically any baseball blow hard, who insist Derek Jeter is this clutch intangible player and in fact the MVP of the Yankees, while Alex Rodriguez is some overpaid bum who does nothing but choke.

According to them, A-Rod only accumulates his stats in games where it doesn’t matter. David Justice, a former ball player and ex- Yankee, so he must know what he’s talking about, claimed guys like Bernie Williams and Derek Jeter raise their games while A-Rod doesn’t. WFAN New York radio hosts, Mike and the Mad Dog, routinely talk about Jeter being a better big time player than A-Rod, who never gets a big hit. And let’s not get started on the fans, who boo the guy because he doesn’t live up to some faulty notion of a baseball god who gets a hit whenever his team needs it.

In the past I’ve written about the fallacy of the belief that Jeter is a better post season player than A-Rod. Today, I’m so sick and tired of hearing about A-Rod “finally getting a big hit” that I’m breaking down everything. I promise you, anyone who even tries to argue Jeter as being more valuable than A-Rod after this column will look like a moron. That’s a guarantee. Mark it down. Yankee fans, Jeter lovers; this is a challenge. Read this and actually try to come up with some freaking way to argue for A-Rod being worse than Jeter. Just try it.

So let’s begin. The format? We’re disproving the myths by showing the facts. Let’s start with the basics.

Myth: Derek Jeter has always been more of a money player than A-Rod

Fact: Here are their two post season career numbers:

A-Rod: .305/.401/.534/.935

Jeter: .307/.378/.463/.841

By the way, as I’ve said before, these numbers are roughly the same as their regular season splits. A-Rod’s career regular season numbers are: .306/.390/.496/.959. So he’s overall 24 points lower in OPS in the postseason. Jeter in the regular season is: .315/.387/.461/.848, meaning he’s basically the same in the postseason.

In other words, it’s still no contest. A-Rod still rocks in the postseason. Jeter is a solid player, but he’s not in A-Rod’s league. While they hit for roughly the same average, A-Rod has a better eye and hits for more power. Hence, that makes him more valuable. Simple, no?

Myth: Those numbers are clearly when A-Rod’s up with no one on, since that’s when he excels.

Fact: I don’t have the postseason splits, but since their regular season totals reflect their postseason ones, we’ll substitute the regular season runners in scoring position stat over the last three years. Given the larger sample size, it should be more accurate anyway. Guess what they show?

A-Rod with RISP- .273/.381/.482/.863

Jeter with RISP- .288/.380/.405/.785

As it turns out, A-Rod is 80 points better in OPS when he’s up with RISP compared to Jeter. No, he’s not as good as he normally is, but then neither is Jeter. And in the end, A-Rod is still better.

By the way, with runners in scoring position and two outs, Jeter’s numbers improve substantially. He’s hitting .288/.396/.419/.815, which is good.

Meanwhile, A-Rod’s slumming with paltry splits of: .270/.392/.495/.887. Man he’s so bad Jeter’s out OPSing him by -70 points.

Oh wait, this isn’t golf. Low numbers are not good.

Myth: Derek Jeter’s hits come when the game is on the line, A-Rod’s don’t.

Fact: Here are their numbers from 2005 in close and late situations.

A-Rod: .293/.387/.520/.938

Jeter: .267/.353/.400/.753

2006 isn’t a full season yet, so we’ll start with 2005. That shows you apparently, A-Rod does hit in those “big spots” better than Jeter. And get this, he’s a lot better. Better average, better eye, better power. Better player. The stats don’t lie.

Myth: That’s just one year. Jeter’s better over the long haul.

Fact: You’re right that one year isn’t a fair assessment. But that doesn’t change the fact that A-Rod is far better. Let’s look at the last three years:

A-Rod: .276/.392/.553/.945

Jeter: .249/.352/.392/.744

That of course is a much better sample size. And best of all, since two of those A-Rod years were in NY, it safely takes care of the whole “Jeter does it on the biggest stage and A-Rod hasn’t.” By, the way, I’m not sure you’d call Jeter’s numbers “doing” anything but lacking.

While A-Rod isn’t the same player in those situations, he’s still well above average. Jeter meanwhile is nowhere close. .249 clip? The .352 on base is okay, but it isn’t nearly A-Rod’s. And forget the power; Jeter is basically a singles hitters close and late. A-Rod still can stroke the deep ball. Bottom line?

You need a home run? Pray for A-Rod.

You need a single? Pray for A-Rod.

You need someone to get on? Pray for A-Rod.

You see that’s why A-Rod has two MVPs and why Derek Jeter has none. It’s because he’s… get this, a much better player in every situation and facet of the game! Simple as that.

And don’t bring up defense. May I remind you that A-Rod is playing out of position at third to accommodate a player who is worse than him in every aspect of the game, including defense. A-Rod was an above average shortstop compared to Jeter who, as David pointed out to me Monday, had been perennially one of the worst in baseball until A-Rod’s arrival. Coincidence?

Let me spell it out for you A-Rod haters/Jeter lovers: just because Jeter made a flip to Jorge Posada in game 3 of the 2001 ALDS does not mean he’s the greatest player ever to play the game. He’s not even the best player on the Yankees. He never was the best player on the Yankees. Currently, he’s third behind A-Rod and the HGH man himself at first.

Derek Jeter is not A-Rod. He never will be. So come on Yankee fans. I dare you. Try to refute this. Go ahead. Because I’m sick and tired of hearing about how Jeter is god’s gift to baseball while A-Rod is the biggest disgrace to ever wear pinstripes.

So if any Yankee fans still want Jeter up in a big spot over A-Rod, I can safely say with a wealth of stats in my corner:

You could not be more wrong.

58 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, I could be more wrong. Like, for instance, suggesting I wanted Bubba Crosby up in a big spot rather than A-Rod. Maybe try not to sound like a know it all, condescending jerk in your articles and people would actually listen to your points instead of just getting irritated with your snide comments and dismissing everything else. And by the way, I actually agree with your article, but I was instantly annoyed by it because of the way it's presented.

1:24 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

yankees fans need to be addressed in their native tongue

1:32 PM  
Anonymous Steve Silva said...

Yeah. Yankees are gay.

1:40 PM  
Blogger Seth said...

Statistics are for TOTAL LOSERS. Seriously. Watch a game or two. A-Rod gets lots of "clutch" hits against the Royals, but when oh, I don't know, the Yankees are down to the Angels in a game 5, Jeter gets a hit and A-rod grounds into a double play. It ain't stats, it's fact. Stats aren't facts, they are averages.

1:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Can all Yankees fans not read? Are you serious Seth? Did you even glance at the article. I think you are mildly retarted

1:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I love how you avoid ARod's atrocious .444 OPS in 2006 close and late situations (through 6/27). Nice work there. Check out the 6/27 post on www.redsoxstatsguy.com for the real deal on ARod.

1:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The fact is, regardless of whether he is better than Jeter, he still gets statistically much worse with runners on base and with runners in scoring positions. The problem that New York people have with hsi performance in those situations isn't that ARod is not Jeter in those situations, it's that he's not ARod. And that's who they are paying him to be.

New Yorkers also hate ARod because he's a pretty boy and his personality sucks and there's no half-assed statistic that can ever provide support for the idea tha his frosted tips are anything but pathetic

1:57 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great stats. I'd still want The Captain at bat in a clutch situation. Funny how that works.

Enjoy your copy of Moneyball, I hear it's a fun read.

1:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A-Rod is A-Fraud and your blog sucks why deadspin would even bother with the link is th $20K?

1:59 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Game 4 - 2000 ALCS - Bottom of the First Inning. Roger Clemens vs. Alex Rodriguez. All you ever needed to know about A-Fraud came in that single AB. The series essentially ended in that one moment, kind of like the 05 ALDS ended when A-Fraud grounded into the DP after Jeter got on, or how the 01 ALDS turned after the Jeter flip or how the 00 World Series turned when Jeter smacked out the first pitch of Game 4, etc. etc. etc.

Stats are for geeks, stats lie, stats don't win Championships...watch the game idiot.

2:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i'm a yankees fan; i'd rather have jeter. this isn't to say that i don't think that rodriguez is an amazing baseball player. actually, i think he gets far too much criticism for being the "opposite of clutch" or "the anti-jeter" or whatever. but there is one problem with this post, and that is this:

jeter's world series stats: OBP. 375 OPS.434 AVG.302

a-rod's world series stats: they don't exist.

the postseason stats are nice and all, but since alex has never appeared in a world series game, much less contributed a home run in a big spot, it's pretty difficult to seriously compare him to jeter at this point, at least in that aspect. and if you do want to compare them, maybe take note of jeter's stats vs. a-rod in the series in which the yankees DIDN'T advance (just when the two guys are teammates, since we're comparing them):

jeter:
2004 ALCS OBP OBP .333 OPS.233 AVG.200 (admittedly, these numbers aren't great, but i distinctly remember jeter as one of the only yankees getting on base in the last two games against the sox in this series, and then the rally would die.)
2005 ALDS OBP .348 OPS.619 AVG.333

rodriguez:
2004 ALCS OBP.378 OPS .516 AVG.258 (this series also included a game 3 in which the yankees scored 19 runs, so it would be even worse without that game.)
2005 ALDS OBP .435 OPS.200 AVG.133

what do i conclude from this? that a-rod didn't contribute when the yankees needed him most. obviously it's not just on his shoulders; the rest of the team didn't do much either. but don't just lump all of a-rod's postseason's stats together, because they don't tell the whole story here.

2:09 PM  
Blogger David Arnott said...

People, people. Have any of you commenters actually looked up ARod's splits for yourself? He's arguably at his worst when his team trails by two, but he's also "bad" when his team leads by two. Overall, whether his team is leading or his team is trailing, he's a better hitter than Jeter. Just accept that you can't show that Jeter has some magical Clutch Juice and that since ARod is simply the better hitter, against lefties, against righties, when trailing or when leading, he's the better guy to have up at the plate. Also, before anyone accuses ARod of never having come through on the big stage, remember that he basically carried the Yankees in the 2004 ALDS.

Anonymous#1, if you want to get into semantics, one could argue that there really aren't any shades of wrongness in the choice of whether you'd rather have ARod or someone else. Right now, ARod and Pujols are ahead of everyone else, so therefore, choosing anyone other than those two to hit in a big spot is the wrong choice. Therefore, if ARod is a choice, wanting Jeter up at the plate in that situation is just as wrong as wanting Bobby Crosby up there. Pujols is the only other defensible choice. (David Ortiz against lefties is basically Brad Wilkerson.)

2:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sportzilla, Nice work. I see that for your pains you've managed to attract every ignorant yahoo on the planet. Many of these comments are so stupid that they defy belief.

2:25 PM  
Blogger Chemo said...

Wow, you've got some dumb commentors. Your original point is totally correct, though your math is a little off. You say that A-Rod's regular season stats are:

.306/.390/.496/.959

They're actually .306/.385/.574/.959. I don't know where .496 comes from. The point still stands, though.

And one of the anonymous guys says that A-Rod's stats in the 2005 ALDS were:

"OBP .435 OPS.200 AVG.133"

How do you have an OPS .235 LOWER than your OBP? Look at those statistics again, sir. And by the way, in both of those series A-Rod performed better than Jeter; I don't know what you were trying to prove.

2:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You didnt prove anything those are stats over a season long period. Show me his numbers vs over 550 teams vs his numbers vs under 450 teams and youll see where he gets his numbers from. What a joke. Yeah wow you really showed me! please.

2:50 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics.

even if you win, you're still retarded.

2:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

'Zilla -- Great post. The Myth of the Clutchy Clutchness of Cap'n Dreamy has irritated me for years.

But man, are Yankees fans a bunch of ignorant morons. Wow. I particularly like the guy that thinks everything you need to know about a baseball player can be summed up in one at-bat. What a yutz.

3:15 PM  
Blogger C.W. said...

You can bring a whole notebook of statistical assertions of A-Rod's performance in "late and close."

The bottom line is this: When the shit goes down: 99 out of 100 Yankee fans want Jeter at bat instead of A-Rod. Perception beating reality? Perhaps. I'm one of the 99, and where I usually see Jeter dumping the ball into right when it counts... I've gotten accustomed to seeing A-Rod K or hit into DPs time and time again.

3:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Clutch hitting is a myth. That's been demonstrated time and again and again. It's just that people want to think otherwise because otherwise how else could they bash good hitters whom they don't like.

The best predictor of a given hitter's performance in any type of situation, clutch or otherwise, is his overall performance level. Period.

I'd rather have a .300 hitter with a .900 OPS and a reputation from some dimwit columnist for being a lousy clutch player than a "good clutch" player who's .250 BA / .750 OPS.

3:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i've seen the exact same article posted before on different sites. try being original.

3:40 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The fans are the best judges of 'clutch' there could be because it is the ultimate intangible regardless of what the baseball prospectus guys would have you think. A clutch moment is defined by the feeling.

It's just like Potter Stewart one said about pornography - I can't define what Clutch is, but I know it when I see it.

Jeter is clutch. Arod is an exceptional ball player, but not a clutch ball player - not in my book, anyway.

3:49 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To the anonymous one who posted the 2005 ALDS and the 2004 ALCS stats... why did you suddenly forget about the 2004 ALDS that, obviously, helped us get to the 2004 ALCS...

A-Rod: .421/.476/.737
Jeter: .316/.350/.526

And using your own quote against you about the 2005 ALDS:

"admittedly, these numbers aren't great, but i distinctly remember jeter as one of the only yankees getting on base in the last two games against the sox in this series, and then the rally would die."

A-Rod's OBP in that series, as you reported, is .435, A-Rod was on base almost half the time he was up to bat, and he bat in front of both Matusi and Sheffield, our 100-RBI guys...

What do I conclude? That you're picking and choosing which stats to show, and which stats to avoid... give me a break, either all the info is true or none of it's true... post the whole story, not what you want to tell yourself...

4:11 PM  
Blogger Rory said...

Jeter's WPA this season is 301.2

WPA is a great stat representing how clutch a player has been because it directly relates what a player does at the plate with how that player changes the teams chance of winning a game. That means that cumalatively over the course of the season Jeter has increased the Yankees chances of winning over 300%

I don't know much about Jeter and A-Rod's history before this year. But prior to the game a few nights ago, A-Rod's WPA was -16. His walk-off homerun single handedly bumbed it up 75 percent to a decent 59.5

Jeter has had considerably more impact on helping his team win games this year then A-Rod has. It's actually kind of futile argueing otherwise.

http://www.fangraphs.com/winss.aspx?team=Yankees

4:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

ok i think its time for some people to get a job.....its early afternoon on a weekday and you're sitting at your computer arguing about a-rod and jeter? seriously....

4:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great post and I agree with it all. The only problem is that no Yankee fan will agree. Because they will have to admit that they are a bunch of bullies who have booed perhaps one of the greatest players to ever play the game. So they will come back with insults not facts and continue to say "clutch, clutch clutch", when they obvioulsy wouldn't know cluth if it hit them in their big heads. They go only by what the media says and some stupid loyalty to Jeter. They crave for another championship and instead of placing blame on the TEAM they have done what the media in NY has told them and laid it all on A-ROD. It goes to show that most can't think for themselves. What other way to explain a group of people who cheer a known steroid user(but will come down on Bonds for doing the same thing), then turn around and think that booing one of their own players will actually be productive. Idiots. A-Rod should have went else where and let them have their precious memories of championships long gone. Here is my question which NO Yankee fan seems to have an answer for?? Before A-Rod joined the Yankees WHO did you all BLAME for not winning another world series in those years??

4:36 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

to be fair, there is a large amount of yankee fans (myself included) who agree with you and who fully support A-Rod and believe he is clutch
unfortunately yankee tickets are mad expensive and some rich idiots end up with tickets and boo

4:56 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

wow steve silva, that sure was an intelligent comeback. "yankees are gay." funny i can't think of any player on that team with a homosexual orientation. real compelling argument.

4:57 PM  
Blogger Ben Valentine said...

I've been out all day, so I just got back. Wow- I guess I hit a nerve.

First: I'm sure I'm not the first person to write about it. Heck, I've written about it before in regards to idea of "postseason clutches" with the two. And until people stop saying A-Rod is a choker, then the post is valid.

Second: I chose Jeter because he is the classic case of reputation vs. reality. Yankee fans would never boo Jeter yet they do nothing but boo A-Rod.

Third: My tone is out of frustration. I live in NY. So I've seen the two play. And I've listened to this anti A-Rod stuff since he got here.

Fourth: I've watched the game, many games. I've seen Jeter KILL my team in the World Series in 2000. I'll never forget it. But the two Yankees I fear the most are A-Rod and Giambi.

Stats over a small period of time may not tell the whole story, but you get a pretty solid picture from them if you look over the long hall.

Do you know why A-Rod's WS Stats don't exist? Because he's never played for the best team! He basically single handedly pushed the Mariners in the 2000 ALCS against the Yankees. But he was going up against an All-Star team with just himself and Edgar Martinez.

A-Rod was amazing in 2004 in the ALDS and in the first three games of the ALCS. Where was he in games 4-7? Nowhere to be found, along with Jeter, Bernie and basically every other Yankee. You don't lose 4 straight games because of one player. By the way, against the Red Sox, Jeter hit .200/.333/.233/.566. That means the A-Rod (.258/.378/.516/.894) and the other Yankees were carrying him in the first three games, while he crapped the entire series.

2006 is a small sample size. The close and late stats are over what, 40 or 50 ABs? Players go through slumps like that. Look at A-Rod's overall numbers, they're down this year, while Jeter is having a career year. Thus it makes sense their numbers are different in 06. But it should even itself out as A-Rod returns more to form and Jeter comes back to earth.

The notion of the clutch player, especially in Jeter's case, is downright insulting. Why? Because with Jeter's OPS, if you're saying his hits all come close and late, then he's basically dogging it the rest of the way. I don't buy it. People are known to have faulty memories. I'd say that's more likely than Jeter only bothering to show up and play in the 8th and 9th innings against the Red Sox and Mets.

6:27 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've never understood the criticism of players that aren't viewed as having clutch ability. I would think less of someone if they did actually have clutch ability... that would indicate that they weren't playing as well as they could at all other times.

6:58 PM  
Blogger Rory said...

It would be foolish to try and make an argument that says Jeter is better then ARod. But baseball fans are a what have you done for me lately variety. And making arguements that show how dominant one player was over another in the long haul go right out the window.

He's not getting booed because of what he's done over the last three years, he's getting booed because of what he's done over the last three months. And in that respect its meritted because up until two days ago he hadn't done that much to help his team win games.

7:07 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Right on. You've got it exactly right. Check out www.athleticsnation.com and www.firejoemorgan.com for more on the subject.

7:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

quote from Ben Valiumtime-
"Do you know why A-Rod's WS Stats don't exist? Because he's never played for the best team! He basically single handedly pushed the Mariners in the 2000 ALCS against the Yankees. But he was going up against an All-Star team with just himself and Edgar Martinez."

O.k. Ben, time to refill your probable vast and various prescriptions. The 2000 Yankees lost what, 15 of their last 18 games going into those playoffs? It's something close to that, go look it up as you have the time to be "stat boy", I don't. AROD is commonly known , at least by the people who know Baseball, to be the better all around player. He has it all, the better glove at short, the better eye at the plate, much more power and r.b.i.'s, but he's never led his team all the way to the end, and it doesn't take all day looking up stats to figure that out. He didn't do it the next year when they were the heavy favorite in 2001 either, so I'm going to donate a few of my xanax bars to you as a favor, because it seems to me that you're not getting any sleep, and when you do , it's probably alone. I'm sorry Ben, but get a life.
Sincerely,
Tommy - Pinstripe Bleeder and fan of both Arod and Jeter.

7:17 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Tommy,

Jeter never single-handedly lead his team anywhere. He played for a MUCH better Yankees team than A-rod does.

Without A-rod on the team, the Yankees never make the playoffs the last three years. Bank on it.

7:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No matter what you responders think, there is no need to act in such a defensive and derisive manner.

A-Rod's better, just in a slump now.

Does anyone else think that Ortiz could be retired more often if they threw high and inside (where he is supposedly weaker) and stopped throwing the low breaking stuff that he kills time after time

8:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

quote- Anonymous said...
Tommy,

Jeter never single-handedly lead his team anywhere

you're right, he only won the m.v.p. of the series in 2000, and the all star game if i remember correctly. Yes, you're right, Jeter wasn't alone, but neither was Arod, in fact the Mariners won more games than the Yankees in both 2000, and '01. Arod had Edgar Martinez-famous Yankee killer, John Olerud, Buhner, Cameron, and the pitching staff always gave the yankees fits with Freddy Garcia, Moyer, Sele, and even John Halama shut them down as well. Arod was far from alone. Anyway, I don't think a stadium filled with fans booing AROD sucks, but Jeter has led teams to titles, I don't know how it can be refuted, that's all. Have a good weekend.
Tommy "El Headache" Pinstripe Bleeder.

8:42 PM  
Blogger Josh Q. Public said...

who cares, they both suck, give me Big Papi any day, baby!

8:53 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

what does it mean when you say "close game?" please do an analysis of the 2004 playoffs.

8:59 PM  
Blogger John W. Schmeelk said...

I was gonna make a short post repudiating some your remarks Ben - but with the rain delay I had some more time. PLease check the main page for the response.

10:37 PM  
Blogger Ben Valentine said...

A-Rod is getting booed for multiple reasons; his contract, the hype surrounding him and don't underestimate the feeling he is one of the, if not the greatest SS in MLB history. Not all, but many Yankee fans want to believe he's better. And of course because there's this riduculous choke idea.

His contract is a ludicrous reason to boo. Jeter is making 5 million less. I mean come on if it were about money than what kind of joke is it that he makes more than Albert Pujols, David Ortiz, Manny Ramirez etc... A Yankee fan booing A-Rod for contractual reasons is just as wrong as someone booing him for "choking".


The hype, or stigma of not winning a championship is also stupid. A-Rod's post season numbers show he was not the reason his teams didn't make it.

Yankee fans should be pleased to have both. My issue is that most aren't; they just rag on A-Rod because he's failed to live up to some unreasonable expectation. Like or not, they've been contrasted. In a town where Jeter is hailed as "Captain Clutch" and A-Rod as the biggest choker, how is the comparison not already been made?

Tommy- Who cares if the Yankees went into a tailspin at the end of that season? Look at those teams and tell me who you thought was better, M's or Yankees? I'm not going to go through position by position here, but they were not as good as the Yankees. I mean come on, you're actually arguing Aaron Sele and John Halama are quality major pitchers? Sele might have been once, and I stress might, and Halama has never been anything more than a 5th starter.

Next, you'll be telling me Paul Abbott was the Mariners ace because of his W-L in 2001.

Jeter has been a part of championship teams. He has not "led" the Yankees to anything.

If there is one Yankee who defies the notion of "clutch" it is Mariano, who's postseason numbers are so sick it's amazing.

If it's all about championships, then would you rather have David Cone over Greg Maddux? Or before 2001, would you have preferred Andy Pettitte to Randy Johnson? Both pitched big games in the postseason and won more than either Maddux or Johnson.

If you put Maddux on the 1996 Yankees don't they become better? If Randy was on the 1999 Yankees don't they become better? So why is it when you substitute A-Rod for Jeter off those teams they suddenly get worse? Why does A-Rod defy all conventional logic?

Looking forward to seeing you respond John.

11:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Those A-Rod numbers are nothing but fuzzy math. Despite his "heroics" Wednesday afternoon, as a Yankee fan, I do not want him hitting in a clutch situation; I'd rather take Claudell Washingotn. Stats are overrated, but look up A-Fraud's numbers w/ men on base in the 7th inning and beyond; it's pretty astounding. Jeter has had so many moments - Game 4 of the 2000 World Series, the flip, the catch into the stands vs. Boston, Game 4 of the 2001 World Series, etc. - that it's crazy these numbers crunchers would suggest Jeter's not clutch.

1:00 AM  
Blogger Ben Valentine said...

I looked at A-Rod "close and late" when he absolutely dwarfs Jeter. This season the stats have been reversed but it's foolish to but a lot of stock in such a few number of ABs when vast majority of ABs suggest they're a fluke.

It's nice you remember Jeter's moments of success. But he's certainly failed too... otherwise he'd be hitting .750 in the postseason. Because of the Yankees success, most people forget the bad and remember only the good.

Think about this as well; Jeter has been in the postseason every year from 96-05. Of course you're going to have lots of memories of Jeter big hits and plays, just like there are ones for Tino Martinez, Bernie Williams, Paul O'Neill and even Scott Brosious. Are they all "clutch" players too?

1:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

clutch, doesn't, exist

1:41 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ben,
I'm in full agreement with you that Arod is the better player, and I made a misprint in my statement as i did not finish the sentence. I don't think a Yankee stadium filled with people booing Arod like they have been is right at all. Sure you have to take a little heat when you're gagging at the plate, but the overbooing is ridiculous. I've ridden plenty of players with some well deserved criticism via the verbal assault from the stands, but to a point. Yankee fans should try and pick Arod up, now more than ever, but the fact remains that Jeter is royalty and will remain that way regardless of what he does or does not do. And that's because of his leadership. Lol!!! I'm not saying the 2000 Mariners were loaded, but it took the yanks a long time to finally score some runs in the beginning of that series, and Halama was a headache when he pitched to them. I had season tickets for the yanks from '75 in shea stadium, through '89 and then I moved to Southern cal where I'm surrounded by Angel fans who win the world series any time they take a regular season game from the Yankees. It's annoying but it's too nice out here to leave, so I will end with have a good 2nd half with your team (the much hated Mets)but start after this weekend, if possible. I grew up in Douglaston , Queens and was surrounded by Yankee hating Met fans, thus my headache post towards you ben, but it;'s all in good fun. Have a good weekend, at the track at least-lol
Tommy

7:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Buhner 2000 ALCS: .182/.250/.182
Cameron 2000 ALCS: .111/.200/.111
ARod 2000 ALCS: .409/.480/.773

yep...Arod clearly choked it up in the 2000 ALCS...couldn't carry his team anywhere...

7:56 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The thing is, the Yankee fans are so petty that they base A-Rods whole career on a few "potential game winning" situations. He could be 3-4 with 2 home runs ... but if he then grounds out in the bottom of the ninth when they are down by a run, he is a complete failure.

Being a Yankee fan is one of the easiest things in the world. They are so spoiled that they will never appreciate A-Rod for the true talent that he is and continues to be for their team.

They love people like Scott Brocious and Aaron Boone ... guys that did nothing but then stepped up in one or two situations and became hero's. The fact that they totally sucked other than those few at bats means nothing.

What a bunch of spoiled brats.

10:20 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You are so full of crap that it's smellin' up my PC. Jeter is a better player, who makes more sacrifices at bat than a-rod ever will in his lifetime. A-rod chokes so bad in post season that I want to send him an inhaler. Forget the stats and look at the facts during the game. JETER RULES!!!

10:34 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That Seth guy is a homo and kind of clueless...

12:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Anonymous said...
You are so full of crap that it's smellin' up my PC. Jeter is a better player, who makes more sacrifices at bat than a-rod ever will in his lifetime. A-rod chokes so bad in post season that I want to send him an inhaler. Forget the stats and look at the facts during the game. JETER RULES!!!"

God I hope you're being sarcastic...I really do...

This may be the dumbest post I have ever read in all of blogdome...the absolute dumbest...

Forget stats?

What the hell is baseball without stats?

Facts during the game?

I didn't know that stats take into account things that happened outside of the game...

You are an Idiot...

6:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I hope you're kidding when you say Scott Brosius stepped up in a couple of situations -lol He was one of the greatest pickups in Yankee history. He hit 198 or something for Oakland and then comes to N.Y. and plays a solid 3rd base,hit very well, and drove in a lot of runs.And yes, some very clutch performances in the post season.
Don't compare him to Aaron Boone, that's ridiculous. It's not that easy being a Yankee fan. At least a real one as I am. One regular season loss and more than half of my office is drooling waiting for me to walk in so they can yell out their paltry-"Yankees suck!!!" you lost, etc. etc. etc. I sat their in the stands during the 80's and watched them tank, and also watch them win 98 games and miss the playoffs. The last 12 years have been a great joy for me. Just making the postseason brings a smile that's real wide. on the other hand, it's easy being a Jet fan, because I know we're gonna suck and my heart won't break-lol,

Tommy

7:44 PM  
Blogger John W. Schmeelk said...

Anyone who thinks being a Yankees fan is easy has never lived with the expectations of "a season isn't a success unless you win a championship".

Winning a 100 games, going to the playoffs, even going to the World Series isnt good enough.

UNless you get the ring, every year, you are miserable.

Try living with that.

10:18 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is easy being a Yankee fan in the sense that you always get what you want for Christmas. Big Daddy has no limits on the amount of money spent.

How many fans around the country would like to see their team bring in just one superstar? Just one!

Or, when they develope a superstar, a money team like the Yankees scoops them up. Try living with that all your life.

If I had a dime for every time I heard a Yankee fan ask the following questions, I could probably pay the Pirates payroll ...

1. How many World Series' has the (enter any other team here) won?

or ...

2. When is the last time the (enter any other team here) won more than one World Series in a row?

Only in New York would A-Rod be treated like this after producing the way he has for his team.

Maybe he needs to be involved with some sort of drug scandal or produce a love child to be accepted in the Big Apple. Being an MVP doesn't seem to be enough.

Jeter is home grown and will always be the number one son in the eyes of the fans. He made his mark long before A-Rod even got there.

12:58 AM  
Anonymous Stevey Buckethead said...

You know what's funny...it took Tom Brady and David Ortiz to get Red Sox fans on the Derek Jeter bandwagon. Now they understand what it's like to be clutch instead of that overrated prima donna (A-Rod, Manning) that puts up raw numbers with little substance.


And whoever said clutch doesn't exist in baseball, I'd pose this..if your entire life depended on the at bat..would you really take A-Rod over Ortiz and Jeter. There's no way in hell I would.

1:02 PM  
Anonymous Stevey Buckethead said...

Throw Nomar Garcia-pop-up on that list as well. Pitchers love seeing the first pitch swinger in a big spot...first pitch slider, 8 inches off the plate, pop up to short, automatic out

1:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"And whoever said clutch doesn't exist in baseball, I'd pose this..if your entire life depended on the at bat..would you really take A-Rod over Ortiz and Jeter. There's no way in hell I would."

Oh I would...i'd take A-Rod in a heart beat over Jeter...a little different for Ortiz because Ortiz has great numbers as well...

but then again i guess you'd take Bucky Dent over A-Rod (so CLUTCH!)...why not Bill Mazeroski over A-Rod as well...how bout lumping Nick Johnson in there??? He hit a walk off yesterday...he must be CLUTCH!!!!!!!

lastly...let me list a line:
.227 .298 .380

whose is it?


Reggie Jackson in league championship series...

7:59 PM  
Blogger Ben Valentine said...

Steve- If you want the guy who's going to look over pitches and not make an out on the first swing, then A-Rod is your guy. His OBP is better than Jeter's.

Tom Brady is not clutch; he's a very good quarterback all the time. People just were blinded by the fact he shouldn't have been good because of where he was drafted. But Brady doesn't raise his game. Plus, the Pats were pretty good too. I mean you don't win in football because of one player.

David Ortiz was MVP runner up. Is he clutch or just real damn good? I think it's the latter.

Right now I'd narrowly take Ortiz in a big spot over A-Rod and David Wright. Of course if I had my choice of anyone, Pujols is the guy I want up.

11:39 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Arod choked again tonite, two of them over the wall for 7 runs as well.-lol I'm a bit embarrassed by the fans who were chanting his name after the two dingers, but it's a hell of a lot better than the obsessive booing that's been going on.
----------------------------------

Anonymous said...
It is easy being a Yankee fan in the sense that you always get what you want for Christmas. Big Daddy has no limits on the amount of money spent.

How many fans around the country would like to see their team bring in just one superstar? Just one!

In response to that, how big was the check that Steinbrenner had to write to Major League Baseball last year? It was over 70 million, I know that much, the year before was in the mid to high 60's. The profit raping, err, I mean sharing program is a joke because a lot of the owners who get that money do not invest it in their team, they pocket it instead. There should be a clause that it has to go to upgrading the team, otherwise the whole program is a joke. Does Budweiser write a check to Miller because their sales figures and earnings were bigger than Millers was (I have no idea , just spouting out another opinion)?
Of course they don't, and unless some of these owners use that money to upgrade their team, then they shouldn't get the money. Hope everyone had a cool weekend, I'm in for a few hours tomorrow unfortunately, but will be back in time for some sun and sand. Have a great 4th of July, and don't blow any fingers off.


Tommy

1:49 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd rather have Reyes and Wright.

5:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The yankees would get nowhere without AROD!!!

1:22 PM  

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